09 August 2009

Has religion succeeded in its job of turning us into good peoples? - RPK

As the title suggested above, this is one must-read article. One of Raja Petra Kamaruddin best, i guess. Before that, i am going to answer his question. So far, surely religion had not succeeded in its job. It is because religion is partially a lie. Islam is not, Islam is more or others than that of a religion. It is a set of law that Allah gives to simplify the human life. Religion can be created out of nowhere but Islam is already there, it is set. In conclusion, too much religion had caused many problem with our life. We begin his article here:-

They say there are two types of people. There are leaders and there are followers. 1% of the people are leaders while the majority are followers.

Within these two categories are further sub-categories. There are good people and there are bad people.

Within the good people category, they can again be subdivided into two more categories. There are people who are good by nature and there are people who are good because they are scared of being bad. If they were not scared of being bad then they would certainly not be good because being bad is more fun than being good.

And within the bad people category there are people who are bad because they are bad by nature while others are bad because they feel they can get away with being bad without getting caught or that later they can always repent and become good whereby they would be forgiven for all the bad they have done.

And this is why people need religion. Religion stops you from being bad and forces you to be good. Without religion there would be no stick and carrot. You get the stick when you are bad and you get the carrot when you are good. It is a form of punishment and reward system. You get punished when you do bad and you get rewarded when you do good.

In short, religion works on the concept of the bribery system. You are bribed through the punishment and reward system when you do bad and good respectively. And since most people are susceptible to bribes they would conduct themselves accordingly depending on whether they wish to be rewarded or whether they do not fear the punishment and do not care much for the rewards.

Over thousands of years mankind has had to conduct itself based on what religion tells them they should do. Religion has been the guideline for our conduct long before the invention of the police force and the legal system comprising of laws and courts.

The history of religion, however, is a history of violence, persecution, cruelty and brutality. In the name of religion mankind has been subjected to much suffering.

The question is who invented religion? And is religion something that God sent us or something that man created to conveniently oppress and suppress fellow man?

I do not wish to engage in a debate as to the existence of God or otherwise. There are some who believe that there is a God (or Gods). Others believe in the existence of a higher power although they are not quite sure what it is and whether God is the correct word to use for this higher power. Then there are others who believe that man is the product of nature and not of a higher being named God or whatever.

I leave it to you to decide how you came to be.

All religions have what we could call holy books. The ‘main three’, also called the Abrahamic religions, have the Old and New Testaments and the Quran. A study of all three holy books would reveal that there are a lot of similarities and overlapping doctrines. You would not be mistaken if you were to think that the three Abrahamic faiths are actually one faith divided into three sects. Of course, these three ‘sects’ are further divided into many sub-sects who are at most times in conflict with one another.

Man has a natural instinct to be bad. But they are forbidden from being bad basically because the religion they believe in forbids it. If the religion they believe in were silent on the issue then most would choose to be bad rather than good. But they have no choice but to be good because they fear that if they are bad they would receive punishment and not receive the rewards promised to good people.

You could say that most people are not good by nature but are reluctantly good. It is not that there are no good people who are good by nature. There are, although they would be in the minority. And you will find that most of the people who are good by nature do not have any religion. Some do not even believe in God. They are good just because they are, by nature, good and for no other reason -- in particular not because they believe in the system of rewards and punishment that religions propagate.

Has religion succeeded in its job of turning us into good people? Or has it instead turned us into hypocrites? How many of us are good because it is in our heart and how many are good because we have no choice but to be good? If religion were silent on what constitutes good and bad and if there are no rewards and punishment for being either what kind of person would we become?

That is something to ponder upon this Sunday. And before you adopt that holier than thou attitude and start moralising, ask yourself: are you really a good person who has earned the right to preach or are you actually a hypocrite who is not really good but is just a coward who does not dare become a bad person like how you would rather be if given that opportunity?

P:S/ I would be sharing with you one video. Take a look.

My Debates


The following are my debates with an ex-Islam. These are just some. I would add on from time to time. There are lots to learn here. I am the one with Blue font: -

v said...

Smart word anonymous. If what you says is right, why there are increasing population of infidel conversion into Islam? Why they are the biggest population on the whole world?

How can you prove your first sentence? And speaking of your lost of faith in Islam, only after your research? Is that enough to earn Allah's confidence? Why not try to feel it, to look for truth within it.

Islam is not the mother of all problem, because of what is currently taking place is just what being stated from Al-Quran. You mental-block your brain from thinking out fairly. Are there parts of your life always troubled? I wonder.

It had happen many times of those who murtad are having a bad time in their life. Yea even small things such as unfulfilled prayer. Shah Rukh Khan for example. Please answer.

December 25, 2008 11:20 PM

AnonymousAnonymous said...

"Increasing population of infidel conversion into Islam?"
Can you give any list Muslim's convert out of Islam? You can't, because of the fear of life's. But people convert into Islam being a big news, so you are not getting true information and you are been put in the dark.

" Why muslims are the biggest population on the whole world?"
Because Muslim's breed more then non-muslims. This is one of the root cause why Muslim's are one of the biggest poorest population on the whole world!

"How can you prove your first sentence?"
Do you mean like "Muslims will do everything and blame others for they're wrong doing, Typical Muslim's attitude." ???
How about US 9/11 hoax..... thing that claimed by many Muslim's? I am very sure you also believe so!

"And speaking of your lost of faith in Islam, only after your research? Is that enough to earn Allah's confidence? Why not try to feel it, to look for truth within it."
You will loose your faith as well if you have logic mind. But i tell you what, most Muslim's are very simple minded people and can be convinced with stupid logic to make them believe that Islam is only true religion.

"Islam is not the mother of all problem"
Yes ! it is, Muslims have been in wars in the past under the name of Islam many times, and this is one of it. Do you think India and Pakistan are in the hot situation not because of the religion? If you don't think so then you must be "HYPOCRITE".

" because of what is currently taking place is just what being stated from Al-Quran"
Yes !!!! That what i am telling you exactly. Muslims are doing all this because of Al-Quran.

"You mental-block your brain from thinking out fairly. Are there parts of your life always troubled? I wonder."
You are wrong, my mind is crystal clear after knowing the truth. I never hate anyone or any believe system that never preach hate. I used to believe that Islam is only true and perfect religion and other then Muslim's are lost people and I used to have complication with non-muslims. Now my mind is clear .

"It had happen many times of those who murtad are having a bad time in their life."
I have no problem with my life now, But i used to hate the non-muslims for they're ignorant, but now i realize, that i was that ignorant.

"Yea even small things such as unfulfilled prayer. Shah Rukh Khan for example."
I think you are watching too much of Shah Rukh Khan movie, that why! hehehe.....

"Please answer."
Now your turn. You can mail me for private discussions.

Something for you to ponder.


December 28, 2008 9:45 PM

Anonymousv said...


First things first, those are long. I am gonna take time answering.

I shall begin descendingly, ie i have read from a newspaper that Shah Rukh Khan is a murtad. He became a murtad after his prayer to Allah is unfullfilled(his mother is sick) and says something that preassume him to be murtad. Murtad can come in 3 form doing, acting, and thinking, if i am not mistaken.

Next, "It had happen many times of those who murtad are having a bad time in their life." That is why i said many times. Among excuse for Islam leaver is the religion got too many barricade, ie can't do this and that, they also unable to learn any of compulsory deeds in Islam, which left the soul empty. I personally have become lost in such thing as solat till i really practise it 3 years ago. Now i am a good go.

I am kinda confused with this one. That your mind is crystal clear. How was your life now? Ok? No trouble? I have had experience of talking to people who only look at the negative parts of Islam & Al-Quran. They only look for faults and blinds their eyes to truths. I am not linear with you here, i dont think kuffar(infidel) as lost people. Islam teach to preach and practise peace, only after then other measures is actually allowed.

It is not people doing, but rather of a stories of event currently taking place at the world. "Yes !!!! That what i am telling you exactly. Muslims are doing all this because of Al-Quran."

About India-Pakistan conflict, i do agree that religion was one cause. But the tragic incident was caused by extremist, they are not ustaz@Islamic preacher, i mean they are not deeply known to Islamic thoughts. In Nabi Age, war is fought as a matter of defending their faith. They are not the one who launch the war. What do you think of America Invasion in Iraq and Afghanistan?

"How can you prove your first sentence?" There are conspiracy theory at this one that it is Jewish extremis doing. Wallahualam. Truths can not easily be obtained of late.

Muslim are the largest and poorest population, but that don't make Islam as untrue. That one happen because Muslims do not unite, overly proud with their own races(asobiyyah), and stupid politician.

I happen to like the last part. Seem you don't answer my question. But answering yours, i can't because i don't have the data. I would happily give it here if i have. There are many reason why Islam convert to other religion, but for sure Infidel convert to Islam because they were exposed to the truth by Allah s.w.t.? Would you agree a little bit?

For private discussion, you can also reach me at my email. It kinda sounds funny. However your last saying is interesting.


December 29, 2008 2:17 PM

AnonymousAnonymous said...

Thank for the reply, mr. V

We forget about Shah Rukh Khan, We discuss generally about troubled people. Do you really think this troubled people only existed in Muslim's society? How about among non-muslims society?? So there is big chances for the troubled non-muslims convert in to Islam! So, you have no right to label those who murtad are having a bad time in their life. Because those convert in to Islam also should have a bad time in their life when they believe other then Islam, am I right? So, troubled people is everywhere, not only in Islam. The non-muslims also find many excuse to leave they're own religion.

Just a solat will not make you a good Muslims. You need to have good heart to be a good human being, as my last saying "A GOOD PERSON MAY NOT BE A GOOD MUSLIM BUT A GOOD MUSLIM IS ALWAYS A GOOD PERSON " If you understand the meaning, you wont argue with me anymore. Good people or bad people are existed in every society, good and evil won't pick any particular religions. So Islam is not special as you think!

You want to know why my mind is crystal clear? OK, I try my best to make you understand, once you understand, you will loose all your stress or trouble in your life. The solution is very simple, question everything, use logic and don't simply satisfy with simple or illogics explanation by anyone. Read more, not only Quran, there is plenty of other books that 100 times better then Quran, don't try to be frog in the well. Do you ever heard about "GOLDEN RULE"? Try to search in the net. This rule alone will do, to make a person became a perfect human being.

At the beginning my mind kills me once I find out that Islam is not what as I was think about. Its took me three year for me to get out of the well that I was in for 38 years. Now I have all the answer for my question and my mind get cleared.

Islam have many positive part, but Islam also have many negative parts, one of the negative is the politic that has within the Islam. Yes Islam is a politic, without politic Islam won't survive. So what we seeing, problem around the world is due to politic within religion. Human died in name of religion is more then the none. So religion don't help the society but caused much problem.

As you said "Islam teach to preach and practice peace", can you give one example or one Islamic country take well care of they're non-muslims minority?? You can't, because there is none. So how do you want me to believe that Islam teach and practice peace?? In every mosque, the Imam preach hate the non-muslims, so how you going to convince me that Islam teach and practice peace??

Talk about the extremist, from where they came from? What makes them to be extremist? The answer is simple, "Islam and the Islamic leader such as Imam, Ulama and Mufti" I searched in wikipedia about Islamic terrorism, see what we can find... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamist_terrorism . Visit few link and you can find those religious leaders involvement.


See what this cleric say about the extremist.

You said "in Nabi Age, war is fought as a matter of defending their faith." I ask you, why only Islam should be defended? Is that Islam so fragile or very weak? Is that Islam supposed to be only true and perfect from "SUPREME GOD" Allah? Is that Allah should defending his own religion? If He is so powerful and all mighty why weak human being should protect His religion?

Faith is just a believe system, you just believe that God have existed, no one has any prove of God's existence. So why must fight for something that we don't see? If you believe your religion Islam, and the non-muslims got right to believe theirs!

If you believe Nabi has right to defend his religion, what makes you believe that America don't have right to defend they're country? I don't agree much about America invade Iraq but Afghanistan deserved it! And you should know why America invade Afghanistan!

What is the conspiracy theory by Jewish extremis?????? You must be not that stupid to believe the conspiracy theory? Try to engage a debate in forum "faithfreedom.org" then you will know the truth! All the news agencies, TV, NGO, NG, DC, HC and many more NGO's are not stupid people not to know about this conspiracy theory? Only handful attention seeker and Muslim's society claim that conspiracy theory as true.

What makes you to believe that Islam only TRUE religion? And have you wonder why there is no unity only in Muslim's society ? The non-muslims also has they're own races and stupid politician, but they're united, WHY?

Your said "I happen to like the last part." If you know the real meaning, you wont like it anymore.

I did answer all your question, but as usual and as Muslim's you always cant see the truth. What can I say?

If infidel convert to Islam because they were exposed to the truth by Allah, why the Muslim's(murtad) them self can't see the truth by Allah? Is that strange?

If goes by your logic, do you think the non-muslims also have the same reason for leaving and convert in to they're religion?

Your said "However your last saying is interesting." It wont if you find the real meaning!

I email you as well


December 30, 2008 9:00 PM

Anonymousv said...

(sigh)..I admit it. I answer your previous Q in a rush. But this time i am gonna made a few research, think and rethink, for i do not possess enough knowledge to answer.

This time, i am going to answer urs carefully and with clear thought. I hope you wait. I will consider to e-mail you this time for private discussion. It might take 2-3 days, maybe a week.

January 3, 2009 10:45 PM

Anonymousv said...

I have read all your statement. In first para, I agree that bad people exists everywhere and that badness and evil don’t pick religion. For your attention, I do not really label those murtad are ones that had bad time in their life as Muslim, (yeah I do not label), instead I only conclude that is just the major reason why they leave Islam. And the non-muslim find many excuse to leave their religion is a broader argument. First, there are many religion in the world. For example, Chinese and Indian who convert to Islam may not have same excuse, as well as those convert to Christian. And one reason why Chinese convert to Christian, as I have search on the Internet and also talks with several Christian-Chinese friend, is that the religion is more open, for instance, allow man & woman relationship without barricade.

Now move to second para. I also agree that just a solat don’t make someone a good person. You also need a good heart, I also agree. But do you know a solat’s primary objectives? Why they are compulsory-ed by Allah to Muslim? It is to make a person leave all their bad deeds and trying as much as they can to improve Faith to Allah. Prophet Muhamad s.w.t had bersabda; ‘Those Muslim that had done their solat but still not leaving their bad deeds, than it is considered that his solat is imperfect’. I refuse your last sentence because it is rather provocative; it don’t question your doubt towards Islam.

Third para, ok, I had considered your solution. Erm, question everything? Yeah, I had done. Unfortunately, in my life, not everything is questionable. For example, thing like Mukjizat or perhaps so-called translated in English root, Miracles. Can you answer why Nabi Musa was able to divide the ocean and walks under it? Tsunami in Indonesia where all the homes are wiped away and only a mosque left standing? I agree with you that logic must be within mind thought in judging something, but things such as previous can not be answered by logic nor scientific solution, I believe? I had search in Internet, reading mags and paper, and I seen none explanation about those miracles. I have not follow your suggestion in reading other than Quran, but one day I shall. Though, I do come across few verses from other Holy books such as Taurat and Injil in Schism (argument that misuse the verse in Quran that encourage the Believer to do acts of terrorism). You watch the video? One by that Netherland guy, and then it got answered by Arabian guy. In conclusion, there are verses of terrorism in every Holy book, not Quran only. I do not have access of Internet in home, so I go to cc few times per week, but that is money-consuming, considering that I am a student and I need to keep close watch to monetary usage.

Moving on to Fifth para, yes Islam has many positive parts and zero negative parts. The only negative parts are its Believers, yet. And that is a weird thought of you. Islam is a politic? Then can I assume that Jews is a politic too? Israelis government uses lots of political strategies to even puppet-ed the United States. The Islam politics today are different than what are practiced by Nabi Age. Today’s Islamist is corrupted as they shift attention on asobiyah, mazhab, etc instead of Truth from Al-Quran and Hadis.

Islam teaches to preach and practice peace. I believe these. I can not give you an example because you are right, none Islamic country had taken well care of non-Muslim minority. Again, the problem is people. And Imam preach hate to non-Muslim thing, can you give me an example? Islam do not teach hatred of one another, so if you happen to heard one Imam preach hate, that Imam is either wrong or astray! I am going to skip the extremist para because I don’t take a look at your references.
Next, true War on Islam is conditional. If one really practices Islam, they can not just initiate war as easy as ABC. In Islam, yes, war can only be done as last resort of defending one faith or persecution of citizen. And through the understanding of Quran, only side that feasible to be fought is government, army, politician and those involved with the acts of war. Citizen or disinterested party must be put aside. Islam should be defended, but others religion can also protect their faith. We can take one example in Nabi Muhammad age in Hijrah Period. After the musyrikin (infidel) aware of Nabi advance, they make a deal to swap their religion with muslimin, muslim practise infidel religion and vice versa for a period of time (could not remember). However, Nabi refuse the deal because Allah commandment. The infidels are free to practice their own religion. You can refer to Al-Quran, verse 109. It explains all. Islam is not fragile, its believer does. Islam is true and perfect religion because Allah commandment: ‘Only religion that are recognized (By Allah) is Islam’. No, Allah does not defend his own religion because it was the Muslim’s responsibility. You must know that while in Islam; there are lots of verses explaining that. Allah had already plays the portion by His promise that the contents of Al-Quran would not be altered by Infidels & Ahli Kitab.

Faith is to believes, yes, and I also believe Allah existed. My personal life, as exampled. During kiddo time, I had so many questions, almost similar like yours for example previous para. I barely practice Islam’s compulsory demands. Moving on to tertiary education, my lives indulge in lots of crisis. I back to Islam, little by little. Then I ponder upon a saying, ‘Human beings often disappointed religion, but religion had not even a bit disappointed human beings’. Is not the world like that today? Because we leave the religion system, that is why human kind sees a lots of trouble. I believe Allah existed for the signs He shown. Of course nobody had proof of god’s existence visually, but how do you explain strange phenomenon related to Islam such as earthquake leaves Mosque still standing and wiping its surrounding away, on-solat human that got saved from the tsunami’s impact, and a tree doing ruku’(one of solat’s compulsory) and it directly head to Kaabah? Verily Allah had shown the signs of His power, only infidels close their heart-eyes. They refuse because they know the truth in Islam. Allah existence in unquestionable because it is beyond human logic. Allah is All-Knowing and the human knowledge is very little.

Every country has right to defend itself. Yes that is true, only if you are truly oppressed. In the case of Iraq, the America do not just go protect itself, it was looking for oil. Don’t forget that Iraq is second largest oil-producing country in the whole world! And yet they excuse they are looking for WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction). And yeah Mr. Bush, where is the WMD? I would not really say that any country deserves the punishment of Death, since it would definitely involves innocent lives. If you are a human being, you should be aware of this.

I don’t really believe the conspiracy theory, as well as prime media. It is only best that you gather research from the whole world, good guy and bad guy. So you will be out of bias, discrimination and information manipulation. As you suggest, I will go to faithfreedom.org just to see around.

What makes me believe that Islam is the only TRUE religion? Because I had amal, iman and takwa, I had confidence in it. It is the kind of feeling for someone who does not depend on logic alone. It is ok right, I do not even question if the Christian are deeply attached to their religion. Like I told you early, the Muslims are tore-apart because they depend so much secularism, mazhab, asobiyyah(berpuak) and hedonism. They lost their best references ever, Al-Quran and Hadis. Let us take one interesting example. Malay race? They are weak because the basis of struggle is leant on interest of races, instead of Islam. Race and logic struggle only cover their own area, but Islam takes care of all. Looks at our Malaysia already know.

Ok, I have answered your entire question too. Hey, I agreed at certain extent right? I try my best to base my answer at the ideology of Truth. And how do you know that I can not see the truth? If you can say that, I also can say you will never see the truth, because you blind your heart to see only negativity into Islam image. It is like you are a pure infidel skeptic.

‘If infidel convert to Islam because they were exposed to the truth by Allah, why the Muslim's(murtad) them self can't see the truth by Allah? Is that strange?’ Ok let’s move to this one. Strange thing exists, don’t they? If there is a best answer, I would say because they do not practice Islam with an honest heart. This one has step into Allah’s power (Asmaul Husna). Remember? In Quran, there are sentence stating that Allah can give Truth to whoever He like. Thus, the relationship between Allah and human are supervisor – subordinate, something like this. The Muslim is here on Earth merely to serve Him by being a Khalifah (Wakil) to preach on Allah’s religion. Next: ‘If goes by your logic, do you think the non-muslims also have the same reason for leaving and convert in to they're religion?’ I really think you should interview one of the non-muslim converting into Islam. Ask them the reason. For a reason, they might be better compared to is you asking the Islam-born.

Finally, I would define “GOOD PERSON MAY NOT BE A GOOD MUSLIM BUT A GOOD MUSLIM IS ALWAYS A GOOD PERSON". You think goodness does not come from a religion. Good muslim maybe not exist. All it takes to be a good person is to have good heart. Religion is none of a factor. To some extent, this saying is true. And yeah, I don’t like it and it is not interesting. A good-hearted person will be so much more good if they learn the peace that Islam bring. However, I disagree on overall connotation. Religion is like a bonus to a good-hearted person.

Peace be Upon You,

January 10, 2009 9:27 PM